Gratis verzending vanaf €35,-
Unieke producten
Milieuvriendelijk, hoogste kwaliteit
Professioneel advies: 085 - 743 03 12

If you dream of a triangle, where does the triangle exist?

Reading | Metaphysics

Arthur Haswell, BA | 2024-07-06

beautiful neon portal on a forest path landscape scene, door or symbol to fantasy world

When we dream of a triangle, we experience a geometric shape with the measurable characteristics—angles and lengths—of a triangle. But the neural correlates of this dream in the physical brain are not triangular. So if all that exists is physicality, where in the physical world is the dream triangle? In this essay, Arthur Haswell not only elaborates rigorously on this thought experiment, but also anticipates and addresses various possible objections. The conclusion, he claims, is that the experiment demonstrates that there is more to reality than what we colloquially call ‘the physical.’

One night you have a vivid dream. You are walking down a corridor. At the end of the corridor you can see a triangle, stencilled in bright red paint upon a white wall. You come right up close to it and touch it. The red paint is glossy, in contrast to the white matte of the rest of the wall. You run your finger around it, tracing its equal lines and turning with each of its angles.

We find triangles in various forms: as printed images in textbooks, as pixelated representations on screens, or even as shadows cast by objects that are not themselves triangular. These physical manifestations of triangles occupy space and possess measurable properties that align with our understanding of what constitutes a triangle. Even in the case of a shadow triangle, there are measurable physical properties (such as angles and dimensions) of light and shadow that correspond with the geometric concept of a triangle.

In contrast, when we dream of a triangle, there is no sign of there being a physical instantiation of the measurable geometric properties that correspond with the meaning of ‘triangle.’ While there may be neural activity associated with the dream, this activity does not arrange itself into the shape of the triangle we see. As far as we know from current neuroscience, we would not expect to find neural correlates of a dream triangle that would be isometric with the shape experienced in the dream. If we looked at the neural correlates of a dream triangle, we wouldn’t discover, hidden within them, a triangle that corresponds with the dream triangle in question.

This sets dream triangles (or other imagined triangles) apart from all other kinds of triangles we encounter in the physical world. Unlike physical manifestations of triangles, the dream triangle lacks physical instantiation despite having neural correlates. The dream triangle, while potentially vivid and detailed in the mind’s eye, does not occupy physical space nor does it have measurable properties outside the context of the dream. Yet the dream triangle, despite lacking a physical instantiation, might be experienced with an apparent concreteness indistinguishable from physical triangles. This underscores a significant distinction: the dream triangle manifests in a non-physical manner, challenging a purely physicalist interpretation of reality.

This distinction is crucial. A computer rendering of a triangle would not exist within the code itself; the code would simply be a set of instructions that, when executed, resulted in a triangle being instantiated on a visual display. The rendered triangle is physically instantiated only when it is presented on a visual display, such as an LCD screen, where it is measurable as a pattern of light. Before this rendering, there is no triangle. If a screen or projector is not connected to the computer, there is no triangle. The dream triangle, however, is never rendered as a triangle on any physical medium.

Some might argue that advancements in technology could one day allow for the physical rendering of dream triangles, for example by somehow linking an LCD screen to someone’s brain to display the triangle while it is dreamt of. This would certainly be remarkable, but it doesn’t touch the fundamental problem at hand. Perhaps one day someone could hook up a screen to my brain to display a triangle isomorphic with the triangle I am dreaming of, but what matters is the fact that the dream triangle would still be manifest without a screen being plugged into my brain (and therefore without the dream triangle being instantiated physically, as a triangle). What is crucial here is that a triangle, whether on a screen, in a dream, or as a shadow, retains certain geometric properties that we categorise as being triangular. Yet only in the case of a dream triangle is this triangularity not instantiated physically. The dream triangle appears within the dream, independent of any physical instantiation. The possibility of externalising this experience through technology does not negate the fact that the dream triangle, as it is manifested in the dream, exists without being physically instantiated.

Even if a computer were conscious and had its own internal dream triangle, this wouldn’t necessarily be relevant. If the computer were a conscious being and saw the triangle in its mind, just like we might do, then now the question would be “where is the dream triangle in the computer’s mind physically instantiated?” The response might be “in the code” or “in the activity of the hardware,” but then of course the point is that triangles are always physically instantiated as triangles. If we opened up the computer, we would not see the triangle it is dreaming of instantiated, as a triangle, in its circuit boards. It seems we are left with either having to accept that the dream triangle doesn’t exist in some sense, leading to some kind of particularly strong eliminativism (a price I suspect many wouldn’t be willing to pay), or that it does exist, but isn’t instantiated, as a triangle, in the physical, therefore making dream triangles exceptional from all other manifestations of triangles. For those who claim that there is nothing more or less than the physical, it is difficult to accept that the latter could be considered anything other than special pleading.

Why is it special pleading? Because it allows that there could be a triangle whose physical instantiation is without the geometric properties that constitute a triangle, something that does not occur with triangles anywhere else in reality other than in the case of a dream triangle and its neural correlates. As we’ve established, it’s not comparable to a triangle simulated on a computer. Of course, this lack of isomorphism doesn’t exclusively apply to triangles, or shapes of any kind, and there is no need for any kind of realism about shapes for the thought experiment to work. It’s just that the triangle happens to be a nice and simple concept, and it seems less meaningful to talk about a ‘re-presentation’ of the shape we call ‘triangle,’ as a ‘re-presentation’ of the shape we call a triangle could more simply be understood as just a triangle (unlike a drawing of a horse, which wouldn’t usually be understood as actually being a horse). This hopefully avoids getting into the weeds with questions about representation. In essence, the dream-triangle thought experiment is just a very simple way of making a point that could be made with horses rather than triangles. The problem is that someone could argue back that a dream horse isn’t a real horse, but just the representation of one. It’s true that you could then counter this by saying that, although the dream horse isn’t a real horse, there is still a question of how its representation is instantiated physically in the case of the dream and its NCCs (Neural Correlates of Consciousness). But this would potentially be a much more convoluted way of presenting the argument. The point of using the example of the dream triangle is simply that saying a triangle isn’t really a triangle seems very strange, if not so contradictory as to be meaningless.

Another counter argument might be something along the lines of “but no triangle is really a perfect triangle.” But this would be to miss the point, which is to use the triangle as an example only because it is very simply delineated. Theoretically, you could substitute it with anything, as the thought experiment is simply intended to illustrate that the lack of isomorphism between NCCs and mental phenomena is highly exceptional, or even unique. I picked triangles because it seems intuitively less meaningful to speak about a ‘re-presentation’ of a triangle, given that a representation of a triangle is simply a triangle (or at least no less a triangle than anything else with the geometric properties we would usually take to constitute a triangle). It might be meaningful to refer to a representation of a particular instance of a triangle (for example a drawing of a particular triangle painting in a gallery), but it wouldn’t seem to make sense to say of any triangle that it is a ‘re-presentation’ of the shape known as a triangle. In short, there is no other reason I use the example of the triangle other than to avoid confusion about questions of representation.

Another response might be something along the lines of, “But for someone who thinks that everything ultimately boils down to physical things and their interactions, and yet has already accepted that neural activity doesn’t have to be isomorphic with mental activity, surely this isn’t a problem?” The strangeness of such a view is illustrated by the point that, if the brain is analogous to a computer that renders a triangle on a screen, there is no physical counterpart to the screen in the analogy. Or in other words, there is a lack of physical instantiation of the dream triangle as a triangle (with the geometric properties of a triangle). Given that all other triangles that exist ‘externally’ are physically instantiated as triangles, to suggest that this doesn’t apply to dream triangles seems like special pleading.

Finally, another counter argument might be that, in fact, a triangle is instantiated as a triangle in a computer simulation, even without it being outputted to any visual display. Yet, I see no reason to believe this to be the case. For example, in a 2D graphics framework, the instruction for a triangle would be something like: ‘triangle(x1, y1, x2, y2, x3, y3).’ Essentially, this is just a way of instructing the software to take three sets of ordered pairs, make three points on a grid, and draw lines between them. Or, to simplify it even further, the user is doing little more than writing an instruction to make specific pixels light up on the computer’s monitor. These instructions only make sense if you have a visual display that is set up in a rectangular grid with pixels arranged in a certain order. Furthermore, it only works or even makes sense if there is a display device designed such that the human eye can perceive and interpret it.

A further way of clarifying this point is to imagine a simulation with several triangles moving randomly in a 2D framework. The simplest rule of the simulation is, “If a point of a triangle touches another, it disappears. The last triangle that survives is shown on screen.” Would it be correct to consider the triangles that have disappeared as currently ‘instantiated’ as triangles? The answer is no. Thinking the instructions for rendering the triangles are triangles themselves is akin to thinking you can feed someone with a recipe rather than actual food.

While I’m aware that this thought experiment cannot be considered to conclusively prove any metaphysical thesis to be true or false, my hope is that it might trigger a change of aspect.

Here is a brief summary of the argument, broken down into bullet points:

  1. In a computer simulation, what we perceive as a triangle is the result of programming code that defines behaviours and properties, but it does not create a triangle within the computer’s memory or processing units.
  2. The simulation contains the potential for a triangle, but this potential is not realized as a physical shape until it is rendered on a screen.
  3. When the simulation is run and the image is displayed on a screen, the pixels align to create the visual form of a triangle. This is the moment when it can be said that the triangle exists physically, as a pattern of light on the screen.
  4. Unlike the triangles in simulations, which are physically instantiated on screens or other visual displays, triangles in dreams do not have a physical form or location.
  5. The dream triangle, while it may have neural correlates, is not instantiated as a triangle in the brain or anywhere else in physical space. Here, there is no equivalent to the screen in the computer simulation analogy.
  6. This distinction reinforces the argument that not all experiences of triangles are physically instantiated.
  7. It supports the position that the mind can experience dream triangles in a non-physical way.
  8. This of course does not necessarily solely apply to dream triangles, but potentially myriad mental phenomena.

Or, even more simply:

  1. It is contradictory to say a triangle isn’t a triangle.
  2. It is tautologous to say a triangle is a triangle.
  3. Therefore a triangle in a dream is a triangle.
  4. A dream triangle is not instantiated, as a triangle, in the physical.
  5. Therefore a dream triangle is a triangle, but it is not physical.
  6. Therefore there is more to reality than the physical.

Subhash MIND BEFORE MATTER scaled

Essentia Foundation communicates, in an accessible but rigorous manner, the latest results in science and philosophy that point to the mental nature of reality. We are committed to strict, academic-level curation of the material we publish.

Recently published

|

The magic of Fourier: How time and eternity are two facets of the same reality

In this remarkably observant essay, Brian Fang shows that the mathematics of the ubiquitous Fourier transform—which ties the words of events and frequencies together—provides a formal grammar for understanding how temporality is a facet of eternity, and vice-versa. As such, perhaps what we call “the world” is not fundamentally made of matter unfolding in time, but of patterns that admit atemporal readings. This does not prove idealism, but makes it less strange. If being can be fully captured in structural terms, then perhaps the ultimate constituents of reality are not particles in motion, but intelligible patterns that merely appear temporal when viewed from within.

|

Scientists interpret their own psychedelic experiences

In this conversation, neuroscientist Dr. Christof Koch, philosopher Dr. Bernardo Kastrup, and Hans Busstra explore what it means to take mystical experience seriously without abandoning scientific rigor. Both Koch and Kastrup emphasize that some psychedelic experiences exhibit a striking degree of specificity and convergence across individuals, pointing toward possible archetypal universals. While this raises clear ontological questions—suggesting that the contents of mystical experience may, in some sense, be real—the deeper lesson may be epistemic: alongside knowledge gained through scientific experimentation, there may also exist a form of direct acquaintance with truth; a ‘hyper-real’ mode of knowing that can leave the experiencer puzzled for years, or even a lifetime, and can inspire groundbreaking new science.

From the archives

|

Denis Noble: “Neo-Darwinism is dead”

Professor of Biology Denis Noble, best known for creating the first mathematical model of a beating cardiac cell, proposes a profound shift in how we understand life. In this conversation with Hans Busstra, he challenges the long-standing central dogma of Neo-Darwinism: the notion of one-way causation from DNA to cell to organism, with genes positioned as the ultimate governors of biology. Instead, Noble proposes a theory of ‘biological relativity’: no single level—genes, cells, organs, or the whole organism—has privileged causal authority.

|

When reality is not out there: Making sense of quantum weirdness

The familiar quantum probabilities are not arbitrary. They express the best possible way for a particular perspective to summarize a deeper situation it can never see completely. Each perspective gets its own least-distorted shadow of the underlying quantum reality. This is how this remarkably accessible essay makes sense of quantum weirdness in a idealist manner: the universe refuses the God’s-eye view, reality being a field of relations in awareness.

|

Why we need to quit ‘fixing’ the world: A cybernetic approach to planetary challenges

Nora Bateson is a filmmaker, author and director of the Bateson Institute. In this conversation, Hans Busstra talks to Nora about her work and that of her father Gregory Bateson, who was one of the founding fathers of cybernetics. Bateson’s notion of ‘double bind,’ for instance, helps to see how solutions we design on one level of a system (say, the use of pesticides to solve food shortage) directly form an existential threat on a different level (destruction of soil microbiome).

Expanding on her father’s work, Nora Bateson introduced the concept of ‘warm data’: information about the interrelationships within a complex system, which are contextual, relational, and multi-perspectival. And she argues that to avoid double binds we need to work with warm data, which is about meaning, instead of trusting solutions that come out of the syntactic reasoning of AIs.

Reading

Essays

|

Francis Lucille: A masterclass in non-duality

In this conversation with Natalia Vorontsova, Francis Lucille explains that Advaita Vedanta is grounded in a single axiom: there is only one reality, which he equates with consciousness. The apparent multiplicity of selves, worlds, bodies, and minds is an appearance arising within this one consciousness. An important value of Advaita Vedanta, in the myriad of idealist spiritual traditions, is that it focuses not so much on achieving altered states of consciousness, but rather offers a method to recognize that consciousness is the single, universal reality.

|

Unlearning experience: How we are taught to un-see a mystery

This short and powerful essay argues that the widespread dismissal of the Hard Problem of Consciousness is an unintended consequence of science education itself. Our pedagogy first encourages us to project the language of intention onto mindless processes, cheapening the concept; then, it swiftly debunks that intention as a mere metaphor. After years of this training, we reflexively apply the same logic to ourselves, trivializing the one form of interiority that is undeniably real, argues Brian Fang.

|

Denis Noble: “Neo-Darwinism is dead”

Professor of Biology Denis Noble, best known for creating the first mathematical model of a beating cardiac cell, proposes a profound shift in how we understand life. In this conversation with Hans Busstra, he challenges the long-standing central dogma of Neo-Darwinism: the notion of one-way causation from DNA to cell to organism, with genes positioned as the ultimate governors of biology. Instead, Noble proposes a theory of ‘biological relativity’: no single level—genes, cells, organs, or the whole organism—has privileged causal authority.

|

When reality is not out there: Making sense of quantum weirdness

The familiar quantum probabilities are not arbitrary. They express the best possible way for a particular perspective to summarize a deeper situation it can never see completely. Each perspective gets its own least-distorted shadow of the underlying quantum reality. This is how this remarkably accessible essay makes sense of quantum weirdness in a idealist manner: the universe refuses the God’s-eye view, reality being a field of relations in awareness.

|

Why we need to quit ‘fixing’ the world: A cybernetic approach to planetary challenges

Nora Bateson is a filmmaker, author and director of the Bateson Institute. In this conversation, Hans Busstra talks to Nora about her work and that of her father Gregory Bateson, who was one of the founding fathers of cybernetics. Bateson’s notion of ‘double bind,’ for instance, helps to see how solutions we design on one level of a system (say, the use of pesticides to solve food shortage) directly form an existential threat on a different level (destruction of soil microbiome).

Expanding on her father’s work, Nora Bateson introduced the concept of ‘warm data’: information about the interrelationships within a complex system, which are contextual, relational, and multi-perspectival. And she argues that to avoid double binds we need to work with warm data, which is about meaning, instead of trusting solutions that come out of the syntactic reasoning of AIs.

Seeing

Videos

|

Post-materialist cognitive science: Is it viable?

Dr. Matt Colborn argues that, by denying the objective reality of what appears to us as the physical world out there, materialist cognitive science renders its own metaphysical assumptions untenable. Only an idealist or nondualist metaphysical basis can render modern cognitive science internally consistent again.

|

Does consciousness resist quantum superposition?

Dr. Kelvin McQueen, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Chapman University, examines the leading quantum-consciousness theories and the unresolved questions that still hinder them all: what exactly is collapse, and what counts as a measurement? Building on his work with David Chalmers, McQueen argues that the neuroscience of Integrated Information Theory (IIT), with it’s definition of consciousness as intrinsic causal integration (quantified by Φ), offers a novel way forward.

|

Why mathematics works: The mind-reality connection

Brian Fang discusses the many instances in which mathematics developed without empirical motivation turned out to precisely describe the physical patterns of nature. Why would primates evolved to hunt and gather develop the cognitive ability to unveil the underlying mathematical structure of the cosmos? He argues that the most plausible explanation is that nature is itself the expression of mind-like structures also directly present in the human intellect. Mathematical introspection is thus an exploration of the underlying mental landscapes of the cosmos as a whole.

Let us build the future of our culture together

Essentia Foundation is a registered non-profit committed to making its content as accessible as possible. Therefore, we depend on contributions from people like you to continue to do our work. There are many ways to contribute.

Essentia Contribute scaled